First Response with PepperBall CEO Bob Plaschke
"First Response," is an interview series hosted by PepperBall CEO Bob Plaschke. This series aims to shine a spotlight on the thought leaders within the public safety industry and provide a platform for these individuals to share their experiences, insights, and the valuable lessons they've learned through their careers in law enforcement.
First Response with PepperBall CEO Bob Plaschke
First Response with Bob Plaschke Episode 18, Doug Shoemaker Chief of Police, Denton, TX Police Department (Ret.): Leadership in Crisis: Navigating Modern Policing Challenges
What does policing look like beyond the dramatized TV portrayals and sensationalized headlines? In this illuminating conversation with retired Chief Doug Shoemaker, we uncover the profound realities of modern law enforcement leadership and the extraordinary psychological burden carried by those who wear the badge.
Chief Shoemaker brings 33 years of frontline experience to this discussion, including his roles as Chief of Police for both Denton, Texas and Grand Junction, Colorado. Now working alongside renowned leadership expert Simon Sinek at "The Curve," he's helping shape the future of police leadership in America.
The statistics are staggering - while average citizens experience only 2-4 major traumatic incidents in their lifetime, police officers witness hundreds throughout their careers. Yet they're expected to maintain their humanity and professionalism through it all. We explore how police culture has evolved from the old "suck it up" mentality to embracing wellness as a crucial component of effective policing.
Perhaps most surprising is Chief Shoemaker's revelation that nearly half of all police calls have nothing to do with law enforcement at all. Officers routinely serve as social workers, mental health first responders, and community mediators - roles rarely depicted in entertainment media that focuses exclusively on arrests and action.
The fragmented nature of American policing - with 18,000 different agencies nationwide - creates unique challenges for consistency in training, standards, and leadership. We discuss what it might look like to build a more cohesive system while maintaining the community-specific approaches that make American policing unique.
This conversation provides rare insight into the heart of law enforcement, revealing both the extraordinary challenges officers face and the evolving approaches to leadership that support them in serving their communities with humanity and effectiveness. Whether you work in public safety or simply want to understand what happens behind the badge, this episode will transform how you view the complex world of modern policing.
The front line of policing is loud, but the voices behind it, you know they're a lot louder and, I think, frankly, a lot more interesting. Hi, I'm Bob Plaschke and this is First Response. This is the number one podcast that takes you behind the badge and uncovers real stories and experiences of first responders from all walks of life and the topics that shape public safety today. If you're curious about the guy or the gal behind the hero and they are indeed truly heroes and the topics that they care about, take a listen. This is kind of your front row seat to hearing some of the really interesting voices out there and, more importantly, the heroes. This podcast is sponsored by Pepperball, where I have the honor to serve as CEO. Pepperball creates unlethal alternatives to guns, at least used to keep themselves and the public safe. So today, super excited, very honored and excited to have Chief Doug Shoemaker on.
Speaker 1:Chief Shoemaker retired. Spent many years in the line of duty, 33 to be exact, most recently as the chief of police for the Denton, texas Police Department. He came through to that role as the chief of police of the Grand Junction in Colorado Police Department and then spent almost the majority of his time in Jefferson City, missouri, staff and command at Northwestern University where I attended so go cats is an executive at Peregrine, which is a situation awareness and data aggregation platform for public safety Very successful base here where I live in the Silicon Valley and is co-founded the curve with Simon Sinek, which, for those who follow leadership and motivation, simon Sinek, one of the top 10 TED Talk guys fantastic, very well known for his inspirational speaking around motivation, and I follow him myself and so excited to have Chief Shoemaker and myself and so excited to have Chief Shoemaker, who actively participates with Simon in terms of trying to influence leadership in policing, kind of post-George Floyd. So, chief, it's great to have you on the first question, for you is a bit of a hard ball or a fastball, I guess.
Speaker 1:You know the challenge of policing in the United States is significant, and it's even more significant than the fact that you've got 18,000 police chiefs in all shapes and sizes who come through a variety of different educational paths. You know there's not a national academy, so to speak, and so consistency is a challenge. You know, what is your perspective on the state of the state of the quality of police chiefs in the United States from a leadership perspective, from their ability to execute in a way that we want them to execute. How would you think about that?
Speaker 2:Yeah, great. First question, and that's not a softball to start off with, for sure. You know it's unique. The United States has 18,000 plus police agencies and so it is vastly different than some of our neighbors across the pond, if you will, whether it's the UK or Ireland, I mean, you know even in Norway, all these different countries that have national police services. So every jurisdiction has a police chief or sheriff and with that comes 18,000 different personalities and 18,000 different ways of doing things, because the communities are so unique.
Speaker 2:And you know, in my experience I've been really lucky to get to know a lot of people throughout my time with the ICP and throughout just my work in general, and it's funny to note how differently everybody approaches it. But a lot of it's really based on the jurisdictions that they serve. And you know the word of fit really comes into play in terms of certain police chiefs that are really great in one area may not excel in another area. You know, a big city chief may not do as well in a smaller municipality because of the challenges that are there, and vice versa, for example. So, far and wide, the vast majority of the chiefs that I've met are there because they want to do the right thing and they want, they've accepted that leadership role. They understand the challenges that go with it and truly, if you're not willing to step up to that role and take on those challenges in a way that is forward thinking and in a way that really protects the community and protects the women and men that serve alongside you, you probably shouldn't be in the role.
Speaker 2:It's not meant to be a retirement, it's not meant to be easy. And sure, I've met some folks that maybe we have some philosophical disagreements with on how to do that or the lack of doing that in some cases. But I think I've met so many great leaders and I feel really privileged to have that experience. So many great leaders and I feel really privileged to have that experience. So many great leaders that are really trying to look to the next generation of policing and say how can we help them do it better than we did?
Speaker 2:And as I see, as time goes on, more and more retirements happen, more and more younger, newer folks that are coming through those ranks because it's going to happen. Right, the opportunistic and the idealism I think is really starting to come through a little bit about what the future holds for policing. And you know, obviously we went through some challenges with 2020, covid, george Floyd, all the things and that was an extremely difficult time as a police chief for all of us, but we persevered, some of us stayed, some of us didn't, and those of us that stayed through really had a. I think we were able to walk out of it with really a greater understanding of what policing looks like as we move forward, and being a part of that was was was difficult, but it was.
Speaker 1:It was an honor still you know um, um, unlike um, um, and, and that all makes sense, and um and and for sure, the that I, I don't I can't think of that many situations of police chiefs or sheriffs that I've met who didn't fit the bill as you describe it right A deep commitment to public safety and to public service. It's a thankless job most of the time and you're only typically in the spotlight when something goes wrong. And when it goes wrong, it usually goes wrong in a way that the public has a tendency to overreact to or to to sadly assume the worst. And so you're, you're, you're kind of it's not easy. It's not an easy job when you know, as I've talked to chiefs, there's a question here somewhere, there's a question here somewhere.
Speaker 1:When I talk to chiefs, they talk about the old school, which was the. You know, I'm going to ask you, I'm going to tell you and then I'm going to make you and the old school was. You know, look, I appreciate, you know you just had a traumatic incident. But you know what, get back up, up, get. You know kind of get and get back on the job. Right, you don't have much of a choice. So it was a bit of old school, hard knocks um, tough love, um. If you could articulate what policing, um, you know the, what policing of today or the future should look like, you know, given those different um analogies, how would you articulate it? Um, what would be the, the, the, the new way of policing and how to articulate that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and you're exactly right. In the 33 years I was on, I certainly very keenly remember when I began if there was some sort of major event, a traumatic event, some sort of major event, a traumatic event, just the things that we see daily in policing. It was the suck it up kind of attitude of you know, you're the tough person, you got to fight through it. There's no such thing, as you know, having issues with this stuff, this is what you're going to see every day. So you either can make it or you can't, and so it was a difficult challenge, I think, to get through, but it was really just the way we did it. To fast forward to today, and I think we've evolved in a lot of ways, and I would say in a very positive number of ways, specifically with the holistic view of wellness of our men and women that do the job out there in the first place wellness of our men and women that do the job out there in the first place. So wellness, for example, has become a much more talked about thing within policing, and it's not an automatic assumption that somebody's having some mental breakdown issues just because they're experiencing some sort of trauma based upon what they saw that day or that week or are experiencing whatever else. So there's a much more open conversation about that in particular, which I think is very healthy for organizations to embrace that a bit and say, okay, how do we keep our people not only physically safe by giving them the body, armor, the tools, all the things to go out and do the job physically to keep them safe, but also psychologically and mentally, or emotionally job physically to keep them safe, but also psychologically and mentally. How do our emotionally, how do we keep them safe to make sure that we, that they know that we have their backs to go out and do the job, and that and that can be just as important as the physical piece, because if officers feel like they aren't supported to go and do what they know they need to do, uh, it's difficult to go out and do the job. In the first place, you're already dealing with the challenges out there. Plus, then you're dealing with the challenges internally where you don't know if you're going to get written up or fired or who knows what if you go out and just simply do your job.
Speaker 2:So I think that evolution has been much needed and I think it's certainly much more prevalent today than it ever has been in policing, and I think that's that's a very good thing for where our organizations stand. Um, it's, it's it's not a old school profession anymore, it's. It really truly needs to evolve and, as as Simon talks about and we talk about in the curve quite a bit, typically, policing is so far behind the times on a number of things that, whether it's businesses or other organizations that are flourishing and police are so late to adopt those types of practices, those non-traditional things that really develop and define culture within organizations. So I think we're moving in that direction and I'm seeing a lot of that and I'm seeing a lot of hunger for that as well from particularly some of the newer leaders, and so I think that's very positive in terms of the trajectory that policing is going in currently.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, I completely agree with this, and every chief that I talk to now, wellness is literally the top of the list it talks about.
Speaker 1:You know they say hey, you know, to be effective you have to have officers and to be able to recruit and retain and excite and motivate and keep them healthy, you know wellness is the hundreds of traumatic incidents that they will encounter over their career is. You know, it's been refreshing, how, let's. If wellness is one dimension of the job, another topic is kind of how to train or how to, you know, guide their officers to interact with the public and with the public at large in a much more challenging environment where A they're asked to do a lot more dealing with mental illness. Mental illness, they are kind of a safety net to deal with a lot different topics than was the case 30 years ago, and then they have to do it under a much brighter kind of microscope. It's kind of a there's always going to be a camera on them as they, as they have to do their job. So how, how, what's the? What's the model going forward for how officers engage the public?
Speaker 2:Well, the expectations upon police have grown so much and everybody calls 911 for things that they don't know who else to call. So, for those non-law enforcement related issues, police are still called on a number of things, and so it's challenging because we're not we're not trained to do all of these other things that we're asked to do as well as we possibly could do it. And with that comes, um, the challenge of of still doing it at such a high level that, uh, we, we're still expected to perform and do it very, very well for the communities that we serve. So those are very, very real issues for police. So not only are we law enforcers that's one small part of policing but we're also advocates for community safety.
Speaker 2:We're doing a lot of things that have nothing to do with enforcing the law and the routine, and I would estimate at least 40 to 50 percent of the calls that we received last year at Denton, texas, had nothing to do with law enforcement. There was, there were not calls for service that necessarily meant that we were going to enforce the law, but rather that we were. We were going to go respond to some sort of social problem or challenge that needed our attention, and we were the front line for that. So if it meant that we were going to go and address an issue of somebody experiencing homelessness or or some sort of neighborhood dispute or whatever it happened to be, chances are it had nothing, literally had nothing to do at all with us writing a ticket or making an arrest, but rather finding some sort of solution. That um meant that there's some resolution that probably had nothing to do with us, whether that's going to a mental health care facility, whether it's social services, whether it's just people not getting along.
Speaker 2:Whatever it happened to be, police are the ones that are called, and so, with that, you have to be extremely nimble and flexible in how you do things, and I would argue that some people say well, you know, it doesn't take much to be a police officer and, conversely, I would say it takes an incredible amount of intelligence and flexibility to be an effective police officer, because you have to be able to adjust how you react to things very quickly, quickly, and the public expects you to be right 100% of the time, which we know is impossible.
Speaker 2:It's inhuman to even ask that, but it's the public expectation, or at least the media expectation, and above all, that you still have to somehow remain your humanity and stay stoic throughout the most tragic types of incidents that you're going to see in your life and I always talk about in terms of the wellness component and other things particularly. You know, most people see somewhere between two to four major traumatic incidents in their lifetime, and police see dozens, if not hundreds, in their career and that weighs on a person. But through it all, police have to be professional, they have to provide an incredibly high level of service and they have to still remain or retain their humanity throughout, and that's an impossible task. So somehow, some way, we need to make sure that we continue to support the folks that are out there doing the job in a way that allows them to go out and be those great public servants and still be okay to live their lives as normal human beings.
Speaker 1:You know, and this is you know, when I talk to my friends here in the Silicon Valley I think I'm the only person that's involved with emergency responders and I give them that quote right, I talk about the four traumatic incidents that I'll go through, or a human, you know, a normal citizen will go through, and to your point, I've heard, I've seen that range anywhere from 200 to 400 across a 30 year career for a police officer. You know, how did you personally deal with it? And to get personal, I mean, you think, and is it something that you still have to deal with? Right, because I would imagine you have these images in your mind, and images and visceral experiences that are horrific. How did you deal with it? How do you deal with it now? I think, doug, you're on mute, by the way. Oh, yeah, sorry about that?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so great question. And I think what I do is I look at, I take it back to when I was a new police officer and I go back to my first death notification and I was young and energetic and I loved policing. Admittedly, I loved the show Cops. It was just something that I watched all the time and it was exciting and it was all the things that got you away from a desk job and out and helping people and arresting the bad guy and all the excitement of what that world looked like, seeing the bad guy and and all the all the excitement of what that world looked like. And when I was the first to sign my death notification, you know I didn't know how to really go about doing that and and how that affected me and how I went about going about giving the notification. And then the subsequent letter that the lady that I had to notify that her, the mother that I, that her daughter, had passed away in a car crash, the letter that she had sent back to the chief a few weeks later, really reshaped my vision and my view of how impactful police can be within the community. And it didn't have anything to do with an arrest. It didn't have anything to do with with anything along that line, but rather the empathy and the humanity in it, and that really changed my perspective on a lot of levels of how truly powerful police are when they do it well and look.
Speaker 2:Policing can be ugly at times. We get in fights, we get shot at, we're forced to make decisions, to potentially take the life of another human being. All these things are stark realities and that's just the way that is. But most of the time we're dealing with people on a one-on-one level. That doesn't involve that level of potential risk, but rather just problem solving and trying to figure out how we're going to help people, because that's why we join the profession you want to help people.
Speaker 2:So I think, as we, as I look at that personally, I think that really did shape how I went through the rest of my career, dealing with the traumas that I did experience, whether it was shooting scenes, whether it was suicide scenes, giving CPR, applying tourniquets, and that didn't work and it didn't go well.
Speaker 2:Watching a lot of death, seeing a lot of tragedy, with difficult investigations that were extremely sensitive and heartbreaking and all those things that go with it, and so I think I shaped it in the way that I tried to keep a perspective that my goal is to try and be there during the darkest of times for people and what they're experiencing, and if I can be helpful in that, then that's my role and it's a heavy thing to carry, but our cops do that daily and they do it, I think, extremely well given the circumstances. Extremely well given the circumstances and I think that's where the that's where the motivation comes from is that you are truly making a difference in the community that you serve. And it may not seem like it at times, but those little, those little moments of impact can make a world of difference to people, sometimes when you least expect it, and then I think that's the win for policing.
Speaker 1:You know, I saw the friends who, a lot of friends who are fire chiefs and police chiefs, and what's common is their ability to rise to the occasion, you know, whether it's a death in the family or it's an illness or it's an emergency. You know, I remember calling him a fire chief and I'm like you know, I think I was stuck in a ditch, you know, having slid off, you know, in an ice storm, and the ability of an emergency responder to absorb and then engage in a way that's constructive and empathetic is to your point, it's truly unique. I think maybe doctors and nurses would fall into that same category.
Speaker 1:And yet that side of policing, right, the serving the death notice or the you know the things that you know what I call the non, you know the non, kind of, you know sensationalized part of policing I think the public only sees if they have to go through that experience. And you know, and the goal is that 90, you know, the vast majority of people don't have to go through the experience. Again, there'll be a question here somewhere. Do you think that shows like Cops or Blue Bloods or CSU or whatever it is, do you think they do a good job of conveying this, or to some degree, I feel like they only convey the action parts of this and they and they leave out the 50% of the calls that you got that had nothing to do with enforcing the law. They almost they skip over that when it's such an important part of what policing is.
Speaker 2:Well, they do, because that's not. I mean they obviously I would say that they absolutely do and and it's just doesn't it's not exciting for people to watch. So you know, when you look at entertainment venues like that and you see cops, and again, I admit I loved the show when I was younger because it was the action. I mean I'm there to watch the car chases and all the things and it was exciting. And you know, you don't, that's why there's, that's why there's like action movies are so popular, because there's things, a lot of things happening and people are excited by that.
Speaker 2:And I think it's difficult to convey the real emotional component of policing on a lot of levels and shows like those are much more drama than they are really truly reality in a lot of ways, and that it doesn't show the behind the scenes things of of the aftermath of of things or what leads up to stuff where they're all. They're really the human tragedy of of things. I think there have been some shows that have done a better job of it in terms of the reality of policing, but I think they're really few and far between and emotionally I think it's difficult to really capture that in a way that's both accurate and genuine on a significant level, because there are so many variations in how we do what we do and nobody's going to watch a show, for example, of I gave the earlier example of me giving my first death notification. I honestly think that nobody really would be that interested. I mean, it's not exciting, it's not splashy, it's just very, it's very real moments between two people.
Speaker 2:That is part of what we do regularly. It's and there are so many quite frankly, mundane parts of policing that are that are not exciting and and you know that's all the paperwork and all the things that we do on on the regular that it you go from mundane to high level octane in a matter of seconds at times where a decision can make a life or death moment out of it, and that's the reality of policing Most of the time. What we do, I think, is very important and it may not seem exciting to most, but I would argue that's extremely important in how we interact. But that's not the case with those shows, but that's not what they're for. I mean, they're there for entertainment, they're there for the ratings and those kinds of things and that's the place they have in society and we just leave it at that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, I just. It's the challenge and this is part of the reason I do the podcast. The challenge is is that's how the majority of public understand that they're in? Their understanding of policing is did they get a traffic ticket and how did the police officer engage them? B you know that would be the vast majority. B they watch a TV show and that's the vast majority. There's a very small minority who deal with police in an emergency situation and when you talk to them their respect and their admiration and their level of grace and empathy goes way up. But that's just the vast minority. That's just a small minority.
Speaker 1:Only show you know, don't show the empathetic and the heart-wrenching side of where a police officer really has to step up and be that you know and do an invaluable service. They don't show that part of the or you know, challenging times dealing with homelessness or with mental illness that you know that doesn't have a nice or a neat outcome of putting the crook in jail, and that's what I worry about. Maybe is too strong of a word, but it concerns me because the public's view of policing has a strong impact on when a turn. You are one of the few folks I've had on the podcast that really does a lot of work at education, police chiefs and police executives, both at Northwestern and what you do at the Curve. Tell me, you know, are police chiefs required and their executives? Are they required to go for training? Is there a mandate that makes them want to? You know that have to go to Northwestern to get a class or is this all volunteer based? Let me just ask that question.
Speaker 2:Yeah, great question. So typically, when you go through the process of becoming a police chief, they meaning the hiring entity, the city manager or city administrator or whomever else will look at qualifications as X, number of years, command level school, which means Northwestern, the FBI Academy, the Southern Police Institute, one of the big schools, smip, which is offered through the Police Executive Research Forum, which is not a command school but it certainly offers an incredible educational opportunity, educational opportunity. They look at those high-level courses really as a level of education that should, in theory, provide for a great leader, to give them those educational, learning-based components to get them to understand things that they're going to have to do as a police chief. Now, whether that's accurate or not, I don't know, I will say my experience with Northwestern was a great one. I've talked to people who routinely go to the FBI Academy. They rave about it. Spi I mean all the command schools really have their strengths and there's value to each one of them. So I think that there are win-win situations that you go for sure, but I'm not sure that it absolutely prepares you in a way to take you to a next level of leadership in a way that today's policing might require.
Speaker 2:So there are other things that are at play, I think, as new chiefs come into the fold that go beyond those types of command school requirements, and I think as city managers and city administrators start to look to fit, and how people really move into those roles of policing, the police leadership roles within their respective community. I think it's really important to get to know what drives that person, their respective community. I think it's really important to get to know what drives that person, what motivates that person, what their leadership style is, how do they mentor or how do they build a culture within an organization. And those aren't things that are really covered by those command schools. They cover things like budgeting and you know general leadership and you know retention and all the things you've got to know to do the job. But there are things that they can't possibly cover, that are a little more ephemeral and harder to kind of nail down, that just aren't quite there yet.
Speaker 2:So that's where I think my enjoyment and my work with the curve is really part of that, in that we look at non-traditional ways to get our leaders to think differently than how we've always been trained, because not everything about policing is contained within a police related textbook.
Speaker 2:There are some amazing police training textbooks, a lot of brilliant folks that have written on a lot of police leadership or management topics and that's amazing, that's great. But that doesn't mean it's it's within, like it's solely contained within that ecosystem, because there are so many other things the work that Simon does, the work that you know Brene Brown's done or Mel Robbins or all these other people have done outside the space. You know the Jockos of the world, the folks that have done really great work outside of policing. There are things to be learned there about leadership and what that looks like, and I think if we shy away from opening our eyes and our minds to those things, I think we're doing ourselves and our organizations a disservice. So I think that's where my passion really comes in is working through that angle of taking those new leaders to a whole different level that maybe I wasn't exposed to earlier on. But I think today's leaders not only are exposed to but really crave or want to push boundaries, to take policing to that next level.
Speaker 1:Which it means they're not required, which it means they're not required. But if you want to move up and kind of and get that promotion and aspire to be a chief, showing it on your resume is is the incentive and so it's kind of like it's a it's a it's voluntary. But if you want to be a chief you need to show that progression and I guess the hope is is that city managers, the hiring, the folks, the higher city managers or voters, in that context, when they, when they run for sheriff, that they look at those credentials as kind of the effort that that chief has made, that wannabe chief has made to be in that position. Let me ask a hard this will be. I've never thought to ask this question and it may be unfair. And I've never thought to ask this question and it may be unfair.
Speaker 1:You, as you mentioned, norway or Canada or the UK, these are top-down government, they're national police forces, and so the benefit that you get, of course, is that you have a consistent, they have one academy and one set of ways of policing and we sell our products all around the world and I can feel that I can feel that nationalistic kind of one size fits all context, if you had to build the US from scratch, you could start over, right, you wouldn't from the the militia turning into local police and whatnot. You could start from scratch. Would you build it? How would you build it? Would you build it with a national organization? Would you build it with a state organization, or would you think the way it's done today is the optimal way of doing it?
Speaker 2:did I lose you? Yeah, you're. You're breaking up a little bit, but I'll do my best to answer the question. I think I would look at it from, I think, nationally, that we should probably have, but I think, since I mean the united states, the makeup of the us is so unique in that we have I mean, we have all the states, and every state is completely different and every state has their own way of doing things, and with that comes different expectations. So there's really not a one size fits all here, and that would make it difficult.
Speaker 2:I do think there are certain things that people would advocate for on a national level. When it talks about, you know, hiring standards, perhaps, or use of force, or, you know, decertification of officers, there's a number of topics that can come up. I suppose that people would say that we need to have a national standard on way that we're set up. I don't think that would ever be possible. So what we try and do is try and create best practices, particularly through the IACP, to create a way of saying you know, these are the things that we we believe in in terms of how policing, as a noble profession, should perform, based upon the powers that we get from the people that we serve and if we keep that as the root of our direction, our singular focus and purpose of doing it in the way where we are good stewards of that trust, because there's an immense amount of trust.
Speaker 2:There's really no other profession that can take away your rights Like a police officer can. We can literally arrest someone and take away their rights and throw them in jail. That's a big thing and it should be taken very, very seriously. That's not a trivial matter whatsoever. So with that to quote a movie, with great power comes great responsibility. And if there are national standards that can echo what that great responsibility is and provide those guidelines or best practices, I think that's the direction that we will go or will continue to go. But the way we're set up, I just don't know that I see it possible, given the variance in states. You know Florida is not California and Colorado is not New York, wyoming is not, you know, ohio or Illinois. So it's just they're all very different in what, how people live, what their expectations are of the police, and that's difficult to pin down in one one best practice.
Speaker 1:I think that's the case. You know, I do think personally that you could, the country could, benefit from national standards and some things, that some of the topics that at least all the people in that state have, some, you know, minimum level of kind of base requirements or some something that is a standard. I do applaud policing. There's folks who listen. There's many, many associations. There's major city chiefs and international association of chief of police, which you were a vice president. There's major sheriffs, there's sheriff's association. So there's many associations that kind of fill those holes in with with ongoing education and best and kind of benchmarks and best practices and whatnot, of which the policing tries to do its best to try to self educate and self um and self manage.
Speaker 1:It's just difficult, I mean, at 18,000 different ways of doing policing and leadership. It's not an easy thing, um, it's just not an easy thing Um the um. Well, I have. You've been so generous with your time, chief. I've got one last question, which is we make a small donation to a charity of your choice. Love to be able to do that. What charity can we make a donation to?
Speaker 2:too Well. For me, it's the National Law Enforcement Officers Memorial Fund. I'm lucky enough to be an ambassador with the National Law Enforcement Officers Memorial Fund. I was given that opportunity this year and I've just begun some work with them, and I am extremely passionate about wellness, as you've probably picked up during this conversation and supporting our women and men that are out there on the roads and streets and doing all the things they do every single day, as well as those that have given the ultimate sacrifice in the line of duty and some friends that have unfortunately passed in the line of duty, and those are very difficult things. So I'm very, very thankful to be a part of the National Law Enforcement Officers Memorial Fund, and so that would be my choice easily to help continue to support their incredible mission, to help those that help all of us.
Speaker 1:Well, we're grateful for your time and thankful and happy to make that donation. Chief, Thank you again for spending some time with us.
Speaker 2:Absolutely my pleasure. Thanks for having me on.
Speaker 1:So, folks, as Chief Shoemaker kind of exits the virtual stage, so to speak, you know just a few kind of reflections. One is how the you know how policing is changing and Chief Schumacher's efforts, whether it be through Northwestern or the Curve with Simon Sinek, these are, there's a number of efforts and initiatives that are underway that are actually helping police chiefs rise to the challenge. And I think in that new challenge, in that challenge, as Chief articulated, it's a challenge of wellness, how to keep the men and women that deal with horrific challenges, mental challenges, how to keep them well and healthy and successful, how to get them ready for a much greater, expanded role than police had to deal with 20 years ago, and certainly a much larger set of issues that they you would see on tv, you know, that are maybe more mundane but are equally, um, if not more, important to the public dealing with domestic disputes and mental illness, and you know neighborhood disputes, things that um, that where you're not arresting anyone but you're there as a, as a, a trusted member of the community and um and to solve problems and to help folks who are calling for your help. So, wrapping up again, you've been listening and hopefully enjoyed listening to me.
Speaker 1:My name is Bob Plaschke and this is First Response. It is a podcast dedicated to understanding the stories behind the people that wear a badge, the very brave first responders more than a million out there in the United States. Pepperball, the company that I have the honor to be the CEO of, and again Pepperball. We deploy non-lethal tools that allow police officers to do their jobs but not have to use their guns and not have to suffer, and keep themselves and the public that they serve safe Until next time. Appreciate it and be safe out there.
