First Response Podcast with Bob Plaschke, Episode 1 - Sgt. Michael Sugrue Walnut Creek Police Department (Ret.): Relentless Courage - PTSI and Police Leadership

In this debut episode, PepperBall CEO Bob Plaschke speaks with former Air Force captain and Walnut Creek Police Sergeant (ret.) Michael Sugrue, author of Relentless Courage, a book that chronicles his personal battle with mental health challenges that peaked after he had to use lethal force.  Sugrue talks about the invisible toll of daily trauma on first responders and explains why “post-traumatic stress injury” (PTSI) is a more accurate and constructive term than “disorder,” outlining how repeated exposure to crisis produces real, physical changes in the brain. He contrasts short, defined combat deployments with the relentless, years-long hyper-vigilance of civilian policing, then lays out practical leadership steps: honesty, openness, and vulnerability from command staff to normalize seeking help. The discussion closes with a direct appeal to public-safety leaders and community partners to support evidence-based wellness programs, peer resources, and tools that create time and distance for safer outcomes.

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Transcript

Bob Plaschke: 0:01

Good afternoon. My name is Bob Plaschke. I'm the CEO of PepperBall or pepperball.com. We're the leading provider of uh non-lethal tactical solutions or capabilities that police agencies around the U.S. and around the world use to de-escalate situations. Um for us, um, our mission is about saving lives, and uh part of that is to put tools in the hands of police officers who can um engage folks at distance and help them kind of change their behavior or gain compliance, get them to do what they need them to do without having to get too close to them having to kind of um be forced to move to um less lethal or unfortunately, in the worst cases, uh lethal solutions. Um when we talk about saving lives, um, we also talk about the um saving the lives of the police officers that are out there every day protecting us. Um, they themselves to use a lethal weapon or even to see what they see on the streets, it's a horrific mental challenge. Um, as I read in a Boston University study, um, police officers are 50% more likely to commit suicide than um an average citizen. And more officers die from suicide than they die in the in the line of uh duty. Um and that untold story is is is the topic for our guest today, Michael Sugrue, if I've pronounced that correctly. Um Michael, welcome. Michael um is a uh, as he'll tell you, a former uh decorated uh officer in the Air Force and uh police officer um and the author of Relentless Courage, which is a study of his own experiences. He's a speaker that goes around the country talking about mental health and talking to police uh officers, um, and is our guest today. Michael, thanks so much for taking the time to talk to us.

Michael Sugrue: 1:58

Absolutely, it's my pleasure. Thank you for having me.

Bob Plaschke: 2:01

Please just tell us um your background, your story, um, kind of in what you're doing today.

Michael Sugrue: 2:07

It's a long story, so I'm gonna try to make it as short as possible. Um, I actually come from a law enforcement family. My stepfather, I consider my hero. Uh, he's the one that raised me along with my mother, but he worked for the Sauce Little Police Department and then the Richmond Police Department. And I actually knew at the age of eight years old that this was my calling, this is what I wanted to do. Um I went off to college, got a degree in criminal justice, um, full scholarship through the Air Force. When I graduated in '98, I went straight into security forces, which is basically anti-terrorism, force protection, law enforcement, nuclear security, air base ground defense. I did that for six and a half years, served all over the world, from the Middle East to Europe, South America, all over the U.S. Got out as a captain. I was actually stationed back here at Travis Air Force Base in California. And I went straight into civilian law enforcement. I was hired by the Walnut Creek Police Department, went through the academy, started in December of 2004 as a fully sworn officer, worked a bunch of different assignments from patrol officer, field training officer, detective. I was undercover two years on a California state drug task force, promoted to sergeant, and was also a public information officer. And my story today really starts as a brand new sergeant. Actually, the day after Christmas, I was involved in a very traumatic incident. Ended up being a fatal officer-involved shooting. And that was my tipping point. Um, like most first responders, I never talked about the horrific things that we see and deal with on a daily basis. I just bottled them up. I kept it for my family, thought I was protecting them, and really I isolated thinking that none of this stuff was ever going to bother me. And that shooting was my tipping point. Um, I had literally been exposed to hundreds of traumatic incidents before that, just like most first responders, our firefighters, our paramedics, our police officers, dispatchers. I got to the point where I literally was losing everything. I lost my marriage, my health started to fail. I endured a four-year federal lawsuit for a justified shooting, ended up being put on trial in San Francisco. And it got to the point, it was so bad that I didn't want to be here anymore. I literally started putting myself in dangerous situations at work, hoping to get killed in the line of duty. And it was another very tragic incident I talk about in my book that that literally saved my life. And that was my wake-up call. And in December of 2016, I finally asked for help. And that's where I started my journey of recovery from post-traumatic stress injury, what I like to call it versus disorder. Now I'm on the other side of that. I medically retired in 2018. I'm living a phenomenal life. I'm living proof that things do get better. And so now I'm on a mission, not just across the United States, but all over the world, to smash the stigma when it comes to talking about mental health, especially among our military members and our first responders.

Bob Plaschke: 5:19

Wow, what a great story. Um, you know, I'm struck by that word disorder versus injury. I mean, it's it's I mean, it's it's nothing genetic, it's nothing that you asked for. It's it's um it's it's imposed on you based off what you do every day. Um and it's I think it's a I don't know it's a shame, but it's I think the word disorder is not appropriate in that context. I think injury a much better way to articulate it.

Michael Sugrue: 5:45

I couldn't agree more. And that word disorder has a very negative connotation, and that's part of what creates the stigma. It makes people feel helpless, like they have no control over this. It's something that they're stuck with. And ironically enough, you know, most of our first responders, paramedics, firefighters, police officers, we often sustain physical injuries like knee injuries, back injuries, shoulder injuries. Well, it's a proven fact that repeated exposure to trauma causes a physical and a chemical change to the human brain. So this is a physical injury, it's a physical injury to the mind. And so we need to create the same culture of supporting our first responders when they need help because there is a roadmap to recovery, and there's things that we can do to get better. No different than if you've got a bad shoulder or bad back. There's steps that you can take, you know, whether it's physical therapy, pain medication, injections, maybe surgery, maybe more physical therapy. The point is that there is a road to recovery, and that's where we need to change this culture and this stigma.

Bob Plaschke: 6:50

So one thing that struck me about your background is that you you face traumatic situations in the military and and an equal, if not greater number, in day-to-day policing. Is there, I mean, I hate to ask, but um, as is there a difference in that context because you're doing it overseas or because you're engaging with your own kind of fellow citizens?

Michael Sugrue: 7:10

Um, I'll tell you actually, most of my trauma comes from civilian law enforcement and not the military. Um, I understand that everybody's experience is different, um, but I want to point out something that most people don't think about. So, first off, you know, most military members are not combat veterans. Um, a very small number of military veterans actually go into combat. Now, when these service members are in combat, they're in a defined hostile zone for a set period of time. You know, that could be six months, it could be a year, maybe do it once, maybe twice, maybe three times in their military career. But if you think about our police officers, especially, and now most officers are going to work 20 to 30 years, and in that time, we're literally in combat every single day. There is no downtime, there is no safe zone. Um, you know, we're literally every contact we make, whether it's a 911 call, whether we stop and talk to somebody at the street, we're making a vehicle stop. Every single contact is a potential lethal threat. And really, I think there's a big difference in that because when I was in the military, you know, when I was in the Middle East, I was on heightened alert, I was on edge, I was anticipating things, expecting things. But when I was stateside and I was back at my normal base, I was off duty, I wasn't thinking like that. I wasn't on high alert, I wasn't constantly watching over my shoulder. And so again, everyone's experience is different. But what I think is ironic is that you know the public generally accepts post-traumatic stress in our military members. It's almost expected. And I think the military has done a very good job at educating our service member, at providing resources, um, at creating a culture where it is okay to ask for help. Now, when you talk about our first responders, we're just starting to do this, whereas the military has been doing this for over a decade. And I think that's the real difference is that the first responder culture doesn't have that same acceptance of asking for help, and they don't have the same level of resources that many of our military members have.

Bob Plaschke: 9:19

Um, no, it makes sense. Um unfortunately, uh, you know, um, when I um and I frequently go out um with police um officers and police chiefs, and as um I found out um, you know, when I when you go to dinner or um go meet with them, they would prefer to sit with their back to the wall. Um, and over time I've become just kind of um thoughtful about making sure they have that seat. And you think about that, you know, to be uh here at home, you know, kind of and and always want to make sure you're back that you have a clear visibility, because to your point, you're you're always on edge. Um and how do I mean what what is the it must be so difficult to turn it off, so to speak, to feel comfortable when you've when you're off duty? Is that even possible?

Michael Sugrue: 10:09

It's very difficult. I mean, I actually retired in 2018, but honestly, every time I go out to eat, I always sit facing the front door with my back to the wall. I'm always aware of who's around me. I'm constantly scanning. I mean, I work out every single day, it's part of my daily routine. And when I'm at the gym, I'm constantly scanning people's hands, I'm checking their waistbands. You know, it's it's these things that are so ingrained for me because it's survival. And I would say that after time, it does lessen. I don't think it fully goes away. Um, but to be, you know, usually when you're at home, that's really the only safe zone, and that's the only area where you truly feel like you can you can relax and not have to worry about any threats. Um, but I also think that you know, since the political climate has changed the last couple of years, that you know, officers have become targets off duty, not just on duty. And so I think now that heightened sense of alert, it's higher than it ever has been.

Bob Plaschke: 11:10

So, Michael, um uh a number of uh police officers, police um executive staff um will hopefully watch this. What would be two or three kind of um either lessons learned or kind of themes that you'd like to convey to them?

Michael Sugrue: 11:25

I'll tell you the single most important thing, and I was just talking about this today on an interview, but we need our police leaders and our police executives to be honest, open, and to be vulnerable. And what I mean by that is with their officers, with the people that they command and they supervise, we need to show them the real humans that we are. You know, we've all endured trauma in the workplace. We've dealt with issues outside of work, whether that's marital problems, family problems, health problems, financial problems. But we need to get rid of this kind of perfect image that leaders often like to portray. And the same goes for the military. I mean, it's it's been a long-standing thing that, you know, the higher you move up in rank, the more pressure there is to kind of portray this perfect image and this perfect life and this perfect family. But in reality, nobody's perfect, and we all suffer, we all go through things. But how is it that a subordinate is ever going to open up to a superior and share you know that they're going through difficult times and they need help if that leader is not willing to be vulnerable themselves first? And this simple change in leadership and culture, I think, can save countless lives. And this applies at all levels. I mean, we have leaders, whether you're a year on, you're a leader. You know what? Because there's people just graduating the police academy. We have formal leaders like field training officers, corporals, sergeants, lieutenants, all the way up to police chief. And we need these people to be the example to say, look, I was once in your shoes. Here's what was going on, but here is how I overcame it. Here's how I came out the other side of this successfully. I'm living proof that yes, this stuff does happen, but things can get better. And I think that is the single most important thing that we need to do, and that's gonna change this culture of putting shame behind, you know, admitting that you need help, admitting that you have a problem, and that's gonna save lives.

Bob Plaschke: 13:27

Um what you've to your point, 20 years of of that kind of um tension, that kind of pressure, that kind of you know, daily um um just daily impact. Um and what would you say to the executives, folks like myself, who watch this, who hopefully you know um have the same degree of respect um and admiration, but you know, sit on the other side of that blue line. We don't really know, uh, we can't empathize with what you guys go through. What would you say to us in terms of uh things that we could do?

Michael Sugrue: 14:01

Well, the first thing is to read Relentless Courage, and I'll tell you why, because it's a null holds barred look at the real humans behind the badge and behind the uniform. And I'm gonna take some ownership here though, but as a as law enforcement, we don't do a good job of letting the outside people in. We also put up this image of strength and invincibility. You know, we've got the uniform on, the badge, the gear, the bulletproof vest. All of that stuff is intimidating. It creates a distance between us and the communities that we serve. And I've heard from countless readers time and time again that this book helped change their entire perception of law enforcement. And I'm talking both sides, people that had a positive view already, and other people that had very negative experiences with law enforcement all across the country. And this book, and again, I'm not special or unique, I'm just willing to bear it all the good, the bad, the ugly, the mistakes that I made. But the fact is, we are human. We do care. We go out there every single day willing to put our lives on the line for complete strangers, knowing that we may not come home to our own families. Now that's not what we signed up for, but that's what we're willing to do. And we're willing to go out there every single day and do it because we care. We truly care about the people that we serve and the communities that we protect.

Bob Plaschke: 15:25

No, I you're um, you know, I was talking to um, I think I was talking to a fire chief, and he said, you know, where else, you know, what uh what other line of duty would someone knocking on the door, you one, you'd let them in, um, you um you let them engage you or engage your family. I mean, the the level of of trust that they have is that you you place in the police officer today, and and in return, what the risks they have to take to have that that that trust. It's uh it's a it's an it's a um I don't know, it's an awesome sense of responsibility and an awesome um set of challenges that come along with it. Um Michael, thank you so much for uh taking the time to talk today. Um folks, uh Relentless Courage is on Amazon, um, easy enough to order, just a couple of of uh uh clicks, but a great um read if you're trying to be understand policing and try and for those police officers watching to help them think through how they can um do their jobs better and be more um vulnerable and more empathetic in their work. Michael, thanks again for taking the time. Appreciate your service um and good luck to um to the work you're trying to do for um policing.

Michael Sugrue: 16:36

Thank you. It was my pleasure.